Natalie is an award-winning environmentalist, presenter, and charity director, on a mission to spark curiosity about the natural world. She is the author of Nature’s Last Dance: Tales of Wonder in an Age of Extinction, and she has been speaking at literary festivals including Sydney Writers Festival about her book and her mission.
Natalie was awarded the Medal of the Order of Australia and the Forbes 30 Under 30 Honour for her services to wildlife and environmental conservation in 2018, and was a United Nations Environment Programme Young Champion of the Earth Finalist. She is one of LinkedIn’s 2022 ‘Top Green Voices’ and was named as one of The Australian’s 2022 ‘Top Innovators’, and later in 2025, was named as a Marie Claire “Women of the Year” nominee.
We spoke to Natalie during Sydney Writers about the powerful gender balance in bonobo communities, AI putting everyone on steroids, the power of cash, and what real life actions are that everyone can take to make a real difference for the natural world.
As always we topped off the chat by asking for some of her favourite tunes to bring her words to life. It maybe the first time that Bonobo apes and The Divinyls have been put together, but it totally makes sense.
How much are you enjoying Sydney Writers Festival?
This is my first time speaking here. In general, I adore writers’ festivals, just because they’re filled with curious people. People that read a lot and love books, and they are the best people. Sydney has a really warm, community- filled energy.
And do you know what else I love about writers? I’ve met so many of them who are actually struggling- they’re not selling many books, and they’re not making a lot of money. But they don’t stop writing. They keep going because they just love it. I find that so beautiful.
So, yes, it’s a very special place.
Which other festivals do you love?
I spoke at Words on the Waves Writers Festival and I really enjoyed that. I’ve also done a few events in Thirroul recently. I like it when there’s a really strong grassroots community – everybody knows each other and there’s a single bookstore that they all support. They’re all environmentalists at heart and care about each other, and you can really feel it.
The other sort of festivals that I’m interested in now is birder festivals.
About bird watching?
Yes! I haven’t been to one yet, but I’ve been invited to one in the UK. I love quirky people, and seeing them living their passion is something I’m really looking forward to. It will me as much for me about the birders as the birds!
We think a lot at Irresistible about what drives people besides the very successful fear and hate. In your book you talk about the love of the natural world, and use humour and sex as hooks. How important is it do you think for the climate change cause to find these more enjoyable drivers, beyond the usual panic and despair?
Yes, I think we need to understand the seriousness of the issues, and being an environmentalist is not a happy job right now, so we need to find the stories of wonder and hope. People care and take action once they fall in love with something. It’s like surfers. They fall in love with the ocean and want to protect it because they’ve found this passion in surfing. Part of an environmentalist’s job should be helping people find that wonder, because it still exists. We can still go outside and see the sea and watch the birds and observe the quirky mating habits of wildlife. We can still experience joy, and we should.
As well as joy, you talk about hope and absurdity in your book. What themes or anecdotes have you found can turn somebody round or make them more comfortable talking about climate change?
One of them is wildlife sex- a lot of people find it funny! I talk about mating habits and some of the misinterpretations that we’ve had around gender and sex. When I talk about inaction on environmentalism, I’ve used the story of how Barnaby Joyce couldn’t even give herpes to fish. I think people are more open-minded when they can laugh.
With those misinterpretations, you talk about how science has evolved and uncovered certain misconceptions or biases in the work of Charles Darwin, and how those ideas have directly fed into human society.
Yes, I think invoking stories of wildlife does help soften some of those topics.
The way I try to frame it is that I’m not trying to take away any of the brilliance of Charles Darwin. He was a great mind that made an immense contribution, and he actually did consult women a lot. But at the same time, he was a product of Victorian era society, and like everybody, he had blinkers on, but we remain really tied to his original ideas. I think people are open to learning more about Charles Darwin and how he might have potentially, for example, overlooked the clitoris of certain animals, or the females of certain animals. I think when you speak with curiosity and empathy and use humour, you generally can get more people on board.
It’s great when you talk about the Bonobo apes as a feminist icons. Have you ever met a Bonobo?
No, it’s my one of my dreams too. I feel like chimps get a lot of attention, and bonobos and chimps bear a remarkable resemblance to each other, but bonobos have much more egalitarian societies. Chimpanzee societies are really vicious and violent – the males are dominant and they all rip each other to shreds.
Bonobo societies are much more peaceful largely because the women rub their giant clitorises together as a form of friendship and social bonding, and that strengthens their relationships so much that when there is male aggression, the females team up and really stamp it out. It’s a powerful tool in their evolution. It just goes to show the power, not just of dominance, but of friendship, community and solidarity. I don’t think we focus on that enough. Other species like elephants are also led with friendship and empathy and care for one another. We seem to have an absence of empathy in our society and global leadership at the moment, so I want to show how animals in the wild embody that. All of the stories we’ve heard of animals in the wild, it is largely – look at that wolf pack, or – the lion taking down a hyena. We’re not looking at the empathy in the animal kingdom. We could learn from them.
As well as those kind of gender or patriarchal paradigms that we’re living in, another kind of paradigm is cultural or medicinal. You talk in the book about rhinos with their horns removed to keep poachers away. How do you think we make ideas about animal welfare and conservation land in other cultures like China?
It’s really, really difficult. I think stopping it at the root cause, changing the culture, that is largely going to be led by activists and academics and experts within China, and other parts of Asia. It’s really difficult for somebody outside to dictate to China how they should behave. At the same time, we’re looking at a really lucrative global industry now that isn’t just about China. There’s lots of middlemen involved and drug lords. It’s highly profitable.
One of the positives of AI is that we’re able to use it to quickly identify wildlife trafficking and illegal activity. Especially in African countries which are really exposed to poaching, particularly rhino horn, you’re looking at community lead solutions so that people don’t feel so desperate that they need to become poachers. Things like employing poachers to become rangers. A lot of the poachers are just desperate for work.
The economics and mass effects of empires and trading companies and technological revolutions comes up in your book. It’s really interesting historically. Do you think that there are positive opportunities for the environment within the revolutions that we’re part of at the moment, like AI being used for research, or do you think our current upheavals will hinder progress?
I think society is in a fractured point at the moment, and something’s got to give. We are seeing increasing discontent the world over, and while everything feels really divisive, I think most people agree that they are unhappy about the conditions that they’re living in and about inequality.
They’re unhappy about decisions that are being imposed on them, some of which are decisions around AI for example, so I think we’re going to reach a real breaking point. I hope it comes sooner rather than later – before some of these environmental changes are irreversible.
I think there are real benefits to AI and how it’s being utilised in the research space. The problem that I have with AI is a general concept. The people leading it are not doing it for the greater good of humanity. Their greater ambitions and the direction that they are taking it seem to be to the detriment of humanity and the environment. I also think that what AI does at a global level is puts everything on steroids. Our current relationship with nature and each other is quite terrible. And so what happens when we amplify that?
What happens if we amplify our current level of destruction? That’s what really scares me. It’s not even the data centres for me even though they are a big problem amongst a whole bunch of problems, but the biggest thing for me is that we need to rewire our systems before we start putting them on steroids.
It sounds obvious to state how our fates are connected those of animals and the environment’s fate, but as you say in the book, it does need reiterating.
It’s a really funny position to be in to have to make the case that this is the thing that allows us to exist. The environment provides our oxygen, our food, and our shelter. It can exist easily without us, but not the other way around. We should protect the thing that allows us to breathe!
I tell the story of vultures – I’m a big fan of ugly animals! I think they’re really overlooked, and often ugly animals play a crucial role. So vultures populations in India dropped by 99%. They went from millions, to just a few hundred. They worked out that there was a veterinary drug being used that was given to livestock, and then, because vultures are nature’s cleanup crew, when they ate dead livestock, they were dying because that livestock had ingested that medication. The vets quickly stopped using that medication. But by then, the amount of damage that had been done cost the Indian economy $350 billion, and half a million people in India died as a result of the decline in vulture populations. There were more dead bodies that were not being eaten by vultures, so disease spread, particularly rabies, and it came at a huge cost.
Whether it’s pollinators or sharks- we really need them.
Its a good angle because people do understand money!
Yes they definitely do.
One of the most powerful ideas is using the law to shift power and therefore who can benefit financially from nature. Aotearoa New Zealand has always been at the vanguard of legal rights for animals, and you talk in the book about how the Whanganui River became the first river in the world to be recognised as a legal person, and how many other countries have now achieved something similar. How does this kind of legal work get funded?
A lot of the time it’s philanthropic funding. That’s why I try to encourage people to donate to environmental defence centres that focus on lawsuits, because there are a lot of legal battles underway that are seriously and positively changing the game for the environment, but they are mostly under-resourced and up against absolute giants. The Rights of Nature movement which is assigning legal rights, or even personhood, to nature, is gaining a lot of momentum, and it’s also indigenous lead. It’s linking community well- being to nature’s well- being, and it’s quite empowering for citizens.
Ecuador became the first country in the world to enshrine the rights of nature into its constitution, which means that if somebody is harming nature seriously, any citizen of Ecuador can then sue the person harming nature on behalf of nature. It allows humans to team up with nature, because harm to nature is harm to communities.
That’s interesting that you mention Ecuador. The environmental campaigner from there Helena Gualinga talks a lot about the power of the youth. How do you think we can harness and protect the passion and energy of the youth, but also not leave everything to the next generation to sort out?
Yes, exactly. It’s our job to protect young people and let them have a childhood. Each generation expects that for the generation that comes after, life is going to be easier, but we know that for this generation it won’t be. I think it’s the greatest injustice of our lifetime that we are putting all this on young people, but at the same time, I’m really inspired by them. I think this is everybody’s responsibility.
What do you think about the power of film and screen content in this battle?
That fits under the umbrella of story, and it’s incredibly important, because we have these wonderful scientists with an amazing amount of knowledge, and they’re sharing that with us, and what we need to get better at as an environmental sector is telling stories, because we’ve often either dulled people to death with our communications on the environment, or we’ve made them feel really depressed.
We can still do that! But we also need to show them the wonder that we’re trying to protect. People learn and receive messages in different ways. We need visual representations of wildlife and the environment and communities.
We need written word. We need all of it. We need so many more stories, in so many different formats – so they’re not just feeling boredom or sadness, but also wonder and joy and happiness – and inspired!
David Attenborough is the perfect example of how you can inspire the whole world. There’s very few people that don’t like the Planet Earth shows or don’t think fondly of David Attenborough!
You have a great list of actions that anyone can take in the book. Apart from those legal defence funds we mentioned, what would you be your top 3 things for someone reading this to do straight away?
Firsty, stepping away from our phones, going outside and looking up, and experiencing nature. One of the things that can encourage this is citizen science – whether it’s a bird watching app or citizen science apps for your kids, you can actually contribute to real life research, but you’re also almost gamifying the wonder of nature.
Secondly, just emailing politicians – I email and call regularly about a whole range of issues! One of them is taxation. I do think that we need to see greater taxation on super wealth, on billionaires, and on corporations, because right now, they are able to dictate the policies that we are seeing in government, particularly environmental policies, and these policies are not centring community, and they are not centring people.
I’m also very much both focussed on community led solutions. So talking to your neighbour! If there’s an issue, you can work with your neighbours to solve it. I’ve met so many wonderful people who have started a mass movement, and it often begins at community. Not wanting a tree cut down in a park, or wanting to build a shared garden, can turn into community gardens that spread across the nation. That starts on the ground.
Nature’s Last Dance is published by Affirm Press (Simon & Schuster) in Australia and Legend Times in the UK.
