Are you happy with the response to your latest book Always Was Always Will Be?
The book is going great. It’s a bestseller. It’s been shortlisted in the ABIA non-fiction and social impact categories. The response from readers has been wonderful. It’s inspired people where they were down, and it has people taking up actions. As we know, we’ve seen it over and over again throughout history, we do have people power behind Indigenous rights. We eventually take steps forward.
You were just a sellout at Newcastle Writers Festival.
It was a great festival- really well organised. Good crowds and good audiences. We had a fun time! And the message hit home.
You’ll be speaking with Clare Wright again at Sydney Writers Week. Will you be having a similar discussion do you think?
The world is always changing and who knows where we’ll be at in a few weeks. Clare and I always have really dynamic conversations, the audience seem to appreciate it, so I’m looking forward to it.
Do you think there has to be another referendum, or can the Voice be achieved in another way?
I don’t think they’ll be another referendum for a long time. That opportunity was wasted somewhat. I don’t blame the Australian people. I blame the people that made it about their political ambitions. Those who took an opportunity to cause fear and concern in the community and make it about their ambitions, rather than acting in the national interest. I think that eventually there will be another referendum and I think it will succeed. I think that because we know that young voted overwhelmingly yes, and certainly a majority of indigenous people voted yes. We will get there.
Without another referendum anytime soon though, how can the principles of the Voice still find a footing?
We’ve always found ways to be heard. Unfortunately, often historically ineffectually. When you understand the history you know that often we get told ‘no’ first, but eventually we get there. It can be slow, it can be incremental. We can be silenced, but we never stop speaking up.
What do you think about the marrying of different causes to the First Nation one. With the comparisons and allyship between peoples who have suffered under different types of colonialism in different countries?
My thoughts are that we should be always be trying to reach across any divides and differences. When you have a cause that can resonate with someone else’s cause, and foster cross- understanding, then you have solidarity. I think that’s a great thing and it can be powerful. It can be nuanced and not always the right thing. But I think most of us know that solidarity is something that is powerful in movements.
Do you see a strengthening of the ties between the Republican movement and the Indigenous Rights movements in Australia in the future?
I don’t think the majority of Australians are very inspired about the republican issue right now. I think if there was ever to be progress on that, Indigenous Australians would see it as an opportunity. We have previously pushed back on the Republican movement in Australia, soon after the Uluru Statement from the Heart, because you can’t open a new chapter in this country, about the foundations of the country, without first recognising at that core level the Indigenous history of Australia.
What are the key actions that people can take now to keep the momentum going after the Voice referendum?
I’ve dedicated a whole chapter in the book dedicated to familiarity. And familiarity as an action. The majority of Australian’s did and still do understand that there is a wrong that needs to be righted. That was indicated by the strong support in the polls until the Coalition started their fear-mongering campaign. People knew they needed to do something, but they weren’t familiar enough with Indigenous Australians to resist the no campaign’s dishonesty and tactics of confusion. An action that people can take is to introduce your friends and family to the wonderful things about Indigenous culture and heritage.
We’re facing an imminent election. How will the political landscape here effect your work?
I think we’re at a crossroads. It will be a very different Australia I believe if the Coalition are elected. Their alignment with Trump’s attitudes, even if they start to deny this because it doesn’t help them in this moment, it’s obvious, especially given the support they enjoy from Gina Rinehart. She’s a Trumpette, she’s been over there celebrating at Mar-al-Lago. I think if Dutton does get in, its not the end of the world. I think we have to have faith in our ability to organise, and have a belief in each other, and we’ll resist the awful the decisions that they might make, like we always do.
Lot of countries, organisations and individuals are experiencing that lurch to the right. Here in Australia, what do you think can be done to counter that?
If the tactic from these forces is to flood the zone with shit, we have to flood the one with truth and hope. I am leaning more towards people engaging on social media. But the balance has to be to drop your truth bomb and then walk away, and not waste your time in an argument with a troll or a bigot or a racist that you can never convince. But you still need to put it out there. Defying the flood of shit and vitriol that we seen in the media and on social media is the rallies that we’re starting to see in the United States. If you follow history and you can see that the USA is mimicking a path along which other authoritarians regimes have risen, you can understand that it’s going to get to a darker place before we see any light. But you can also see from history that authoritarians often don’t get to where they want to be and the people amass and fight and defeat them. Or we drag them down, eventually.
A lot of the feelings that are being generated in people under the influence of these darker forces are around fear and hate. At Irresistible, we’ve talked with others before, like Maria Ressa, about which levers people should try and pull to counter those feelings. Do you feel the key is empathy, like she does, and how do you think it can be achieved? What role can the arts and music play?
Songs are about empathy. Songs are about stirring people’s emotions. The whole reason why Trump and Dutton and the like are anti-woke, is because woke means empathy. Woke means you are empathising with someone and then you perform acts of care. I think Maria Ressa is right, empathy is key. How you get people to empathise can fall to the tactics of songs and the arts, even what we do on social media, it can all be about empathy.
So we need a new Irresistible song of resistance? Do you think we can get Midnight Oil to write it?
Oh yes, absolutely. A song of defiance. I think the Oils are always basically recording history in their songs and that resonates through the ages. You can see what doesn’t change and you can see what works. An update would be great.
